[Yudster]

Consol is absolutely right in saying that his "theory" is in many ways just as much of a religion as those belief systems which are currently accepted as "religions". Religions are all man made sets of rules which you are required to follow in order to - what? Well, in order to conform to the religion. A bit pointless really. Consols has the advantage of being complex, therefore more attractive to the intellectual - or the wannabe intellectual. On the whole, although it might sound a bit paradoxical, considering what I posted earlier, I am anti religion. But just because something is paradoxical doesn't mean it is valueless - and probably the most famous fighter against religion and religious institutes in the history of the world was Jesus Christ.

But don't you think we are talking less about "defining moments" here, and more about "epiphany moments"? I think we have all probably had many defining moments. Some of mine -
My first marriage defined me as a wife.
The birth of my children defined me as a mother.
The death of my first husband defined me as a widow.
My subsequent marriage five years later to a man twelve and a half years younger than me defined me as a dirty old woman!
The birth of my third - last! child two and a half years ago defined me as probably certifiable!

I suppose it depends on how you define "defining"!

[MK Chris]

The death of my first husband defined me as a widow.

Really? Sorry to hear that.

Out of interest (you may not like to answer this) how old actually are you?

[Boboff]

That's sad Yudster, and happy, and your cool, so it's all turned out ok.

I have had a terrible week, topped off today by the need to clean out my sewars which were overflowing into the back door. We have a "don't need to empty" septic tank, and I think it's full, and I have just moved about 2 tonne of my families pooo and paper. I think I could use that as defining moment, if only I new for what.

Tell you what though, it's nothing to loosing a husband and Father of your children, and I should stop feeling sorry for myself.

We all should, Topher was kind too, that's nice, and he came t Devon last wee. I think allot more of Sidder's following his comments.

I suppose it's a statement of the obvious, but you don't know what the people behind the Avatars are like do you, the process of discussions, and rants, and debate encourages that and helps to build a strength of community, and an understanding of where motivations may lie.

I worthwhile thought to take on the journey I think is to give people the benefit of the doubt. Especially when you can be having a bad day.

Group Hug !

[MK Chris]

I suppose it's a statement of the obvious, but you don't know what the people behind the Avatars are like do you, the process of discussions, and rants, and debate encourages that and helps to build a strength of community, and an understanding of where motivations may lie.

Correct - the fact is nobody knows anybody else on here - not really, not even the few that have met once or twice.

[kendra k]

i know all y'alls!!!!

and if sidders doesn't meet me in december, i will cry!

[Gaspode_The_Wonder_Dog]

Everton 3 Man Utd 4. Everton 3-0 down at half time only to come back to 3-3 before the unbelivably good Christiano Ronaldo crosses to Ruud Van Nistelrooy and its all over.

That sums up everything you need to know about life. Nothing is impossible but ultimately you have to be prepared for some gobsh*te to sh*t on you.

But some points along the way are terrific...

[Andy B]

From memory, the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle is where....... Luckily, I never mentioned being able to calculate the future, only that the future is set and unchangeable.

Aaargh I've tried not responding to this for fear of sounding petty but it's been knawing at me all day so I'm petty. Your theory is known as the Laplace theory of scientific determinism however It's not that we lack the sophisticated measuring devices to eliminate the uncertainty, it really is impossible. It doesn't just seem uncertain, it is uncertain. It's all to do with something called plank's constant (way too comlicated to go into). and rather than thinking of particles as billiard balls, they're more like clouds of energy that are constantly in a state of random fluctuating motion on the microscopic scale. The best you can try for is quantum mechanics which incorporates the H.U.P. but deals more with probabilities so you can say that this particle will probably end up there having probably taken this path.

Anyway, I know that my theory is just that, a theory, and that it requires about as much belief as religions do, so I wouldn't expect everyone to agree with me, and I would never lower myself to force it upon people. However, for better or worse, my theory/belief completely changed my view of the universe, myself and life in general.

Which generally renders all of the above point meaningless anyway but I still had to say it....it was cathartic. 500 years ago they thought the world was flat who knows what you'll know tomorrow.

[Console]

Your theory is known as the Laplace theory of scientific determinism however It's not that we lack the sophisticated measuring devices to eliminate the uncertainty, it really is impossible. It doesn't just seem uncertain, it is uncertain. It's all to do with something called plank's constant (way too comlicated to go into). and rather than thinking of particles as billiard balls, they're more like clouds of energy that are constantly in a state of random fluctuating motion on the microscopic scale. The best you can try for is quantum mechanics which incorporates the H.U.P. but deals more with probabilities so you can say that this particle will probably end up there having probably taken this path.

The problem with the 'HUP' is that we know, for all intents and purposes, nothing about the fundamental particles of the universe. Like the supposidly 'random' decay of atoms in radioactive elements, the 'uncertainty' could be explained if we fully understood the fundemental particles of the universe and the laws they abode by. A tiny, unmeasureable, change, caused by an interaction we have not seen, in a fundamental particle would change the way it interacts with other fp's, which, in the bigger picture, would cause a reaction that we didn't expect, or, to put it simply, a 'random' event. Unfortunately, I'm of the opinion that we'll never know everything about the fp's and the universe in general, so it really is as proveable as god (although more logical).

[Yudster]

Console and Andy B are shining examples of the uniquely human spirit - the unquenchable thirst to know the unknowable, even thought they KNOW it is unknowable! It is a wonderful example of the potential of the human race - obviously not always for good (speaking for mankind as a whole, not you two!), but we are only people. I love what we are finding out about each other here, great thread Boboff. By the way, I hope you are no longer swimming in poo.

And I remember Gaspode's moment too - it was a bright one, for sure (yes, I know I am a Colchester United fan, but I am Man U by marriage.....!).

[Boboff]

Poo crisis only just sorted, had to go get big stick plunger thing ( that will come in handy for cleaning the chimneys also ) and 2ltrs of septic tank ensyme, queuing up outside of B&Q with two kids fighting smelling of excrement, that might be defining, or the episode that preceded it, I went to work as I was sure we had poo stick there, only to find one of the hoses had burst and the entire ground floor of the factory and warehouse is under 4 inches of water, the spare key to get to the poo sticks was missing so I had to break in and you have already guessed the poo sticks wern't there, the son then decides it's a good idea to bang his toy cars on the boonet of my two month old car, which I wasn't impressed about either, the guy's who were meant to work yesterday sorting out the racking in the warehouse just turned up and thought, sod that too hard. I think if I were Chris people would be calling this a succession of publicity stunts !

Off to one of those suicide forums now to cheer meself up !

Watch out for Argyle on Sky at 1.15, playing Derby, Come on you Greens !

[Yudster]

I know what you mean by "poo sticks" - and I know what they are really called too (because I have to buy some to clear my drain outside my kitchen) - but from now on they will forever be know as Poo Sticks. And when I stand on a bridge with my little boy and throw twigs into the river on one side, and run happily to the other side to see whose twig comes out first, I will cry because all I will be able to think of will be sh**!

Actually, the game of Pooh Sticks was originally invented by Winnie the Pooh using pine cones. But after extensive research, he found that sticks were easier to mark, therefore it was easier to establish who had won. Just a random piece of trivia.

[MK Chris]

the unquenchable thirst to know the unknowable, even thought they KNOW it is unknowable!

But how do you know it's unknowable? Just because we don't know, doesn't mean nobody ever will do (or, unlikely as it may seem, it doesn't even mean nobody knows now.)

[Yudster]

Its a good question, and perhaps you will know what I mean if I say that in the same way as these matters you are speaking of are unknowable, that question is unanswerable. The one thing I am not saying though is that it is undesirable or wrong to keep trying - indeed, I think it is inevitable. But the problem with this kind of philosophical debate is that eventually it winds around itself in such tight circles, the only place available for it to exist is fundamental - by which I mean up your fundament! (Do I get extra points for the use of Mediaeval English?!). In fact, the nature of the debate itself in many ways resembles the subject OF the debate - by which I mean you have the unknowable subject, the unanswerable question and the unresolvable debate. Aren't people brilliant?!

[Boboff]

if you knew it was unknowable, then you would know, and therefore it wasn't unknowable any way.

The human brain struggles to comprehend, but has an isatiable appatite to know why, it is this, which has meant survival, and ultimately led to the knowledge to destroy creation, and man kind itself. Be it nuclear bombs or the motor car, Deoderant, or central heating, plastic packaging or the need to eat strawberries 12 months of the year, they all contribute to the fastest in relative terms disaster this planet has ever faced, resources which took millions of years to make have been consumed in less than 200 years, progress has come at a huge price for the generations of people who will come after us, who will continually ask "how could they have been so Stupid "

Off for a beer now ! Smell of poo finally gone from hands !

Yudster - Poo Sticks £17.98 from B&Q, with free chimney cleaning attachment !

Poo stick from Woods - Free

The look on you childrens face when you physically urge when they ask to play poo sticks .... Priceless !

[Yudster]

Next time they want to play poo sticks, I'll make them clear the drains!

[kendra k]

i played the poo sticks on the radio this morning.

i'm not sure i want to be a librarian. this is bad, since i'm in library school. blargh~